the standard

[deadman]

this is my first post. i believe that it should be known where i stand right out the gate. i pray that my words will convey my heart.

i have been in just about every major "sect" of american christianity. i believe that the lord had showen me that they are all false teachers, heirlings, if you will.
i have been throwen out of numerous churches for asking questions about thier pratices. i am convinced by the holy spirit that until pastors no longer accept a salery, and no longer burden thier congreations with this financial load, they will not be able to function as the lord desires.
using the apsotle paul as an example.

i am also convinced that until the american church stops the hypocritical practice of the 501c3 tax shelter the lord will continue to with hold some of the promisis to the belivers.
its no wonder that the governmet has no respect for the "chruch" in america.
jesus taught the we should render unto ceaser that witch belongs to him. he asked us to pay our taxes. preachers teach not to cheat on the taxes to the congreation. but do not pay the taxes as they should. in a sence the american church uses the tax shelter as a means to aquire wealth.
also depending on the governmet for financial aid.
this will soon be the undoing of the "american church"
jesus ministry was far from broke, even though judas was stealing from the till. but christ set the example. living a very humble existance.
it is my deep conviction that 98% of american pastors are hierlings and the same amount are wolves in sheeps clothing.

there standard for how the body of christ should position its self was set by christ. and from what i see, no christ likeness there.

here is an example.

a nearby large church. i have spoken with the pastor on several; occasions.
this church spent approx. 12,750.00 for a wall to be built in the building.
this building is excellent. and i could really see no reason for tha wall. thier reason was for asthetics.
i then heard the minister, asking folks to bear the burden of this wall financially.
about a month later some one informed me that when they went to the movie theater there was a 2 minutes advertisement for this same church.

i inquired about the cost of the advertisements and was told the cost was 22,000.00 a month.

maybe im crazy but if the love of god was present and they were maturing believes they wouldnt need to advertise the advertisement would be thoes whom belong to that assembly, demonstrated by the love and power of the holys spirit work in them individually and corperatly.

its no wonder that a guy can walk into a church and kill the pastor. im shur the loving lord we serve gave some one a warning but it ws dismissed or they arent mature enough to call it what it is.

i have so much to say about the state of what is called the "church" in america.

[Cindy]

Thank you for sharing this with us. I don't know enough about the tax system or anything to be able to speak intelligently about that so I'm not even going to try lol. As far as pastors not getting a salary, the bible also says

1 Timothy 5:17-18 The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, “Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain,” and “The worker deserves his wages.”

so while I don't think they need to have exorbitant salaries, I don't mind paying them a living wage.

I'm much more concerned about what they teach and how they live. I'm also concerned that we have become accustomed to insisting that "pastors" be taught by the world and have degree's to prove it before we allow them to do what the Lord called them to do. In my opinion, if the Lord calls someone to preach, they should be allowed to preach regardless of their educational level. The way our churches are set up now, not one single one of the apostles except for Paul (and I'm not too sure they would approve of his credentials either!) would be allowed to preach and that's just plain wrong!

I think though that perhaps the reason for the taxes and the wages and the degrees they expect pastors to have now days is because the church is not really a church any longer, it's a business. That's why there's advertising, that's why they have "programs" etc. It's just another business.

That's why I'm so very grateful for the internet. On line you can find good solid preaching, good fellowship, and people can learn and grow together. I'm sure there's plenty of garbage on line too but that's ok, the Lord guides those who belong to Him. Here we can get back to the basics and not worry about all the garbage that is in the "churches" today.

I'm going to stop now because i could go on forever about how bad the church has become in the world for the most part. Here's something I wrote about a year and a half ago about it if you're interested:

What does "church" mean to you?

[_Michael_]

Who knows about the wall thing. On the other hand how many people can a church reach at the movies? is that a good thing reaching out to the public?

I see no reason a church should do what ever they can by what means God have given them.

I don't agree with a lot of Churches doctrines these days, but that is different than a really Godly church using money to better it self.

Welcome deadman, even though I don't agree with all you said.

God Bless

[deadman]

thanks for concidering what i presented. michael that is the exact argument that the minister said to me. that would be fine if infact they were making deciples. sadly to say in this specific case the arent. it really is a ploy to get numbers up that brings offerings/tithe up.

its my understanding that as the body of christ our foucus shouldnt be on ourselves
if they alread have been blessed with an imaculant building, where is the contentment that comes with christ. i see so much these days the call for better everything. this reflects the world and we should be set apart, and peculiare.

im not shure where the advertisement came from jesus ministry came from. i doubt there were banners hanging on the gates anouncing his presence and when he could be found. rather the oppisite, it was the fact that the very essence of God permiated his life, the love of the father, and he was sought out.

i dont believe that just because we live in a modern society that this is the case that any church or minister should need to advertise. if the motive was pure i would think that the message would be more something like this, now that you see a need for the lord in your life, attend the church in your area.

the problem is that in most churches the love of the father isnt permiating from the buildings nor the people with in. most churches are inward focused. most out reaches are designed by well meaning, imature christians, who want to do something. a godly church will be known for the care of ture widows and orphans and thier love of christ.

but using christ example of out reach he did what he seen the father doing. then and only then was the power to change a persons life present in agreement with the father the miricles came, people heard of them and persued him.
i dont see this happening in our society. that leads me to believe that most arent doing what the father is doing but rather comming up with good ideas and asking god to bless it.
this next statement may stir some things up, but really is god doing out reaches to draw more folks to a building of inward focused people whom more than likely will be tought out of mans understanding/ interpetation of the bible rather than a real life relationship with christ. where the bible is held up to a standard as if it by its self will save one soul. i dont think so. further more i dont believe that he would draw others to be decipled when most of todays ministers have not been properly decipled but rather decided that that was thier profession. went to bible school and sent out resumes.
that also isnt the example set in the new testament for the selection of ministers. any one brought in from the outside is a heirling. with the exception of some one sent to a local assembly by the little "a" apostle or missonary who started the asembely.

i have a guy who lives across the street, who went to bible school, recieved his degree and now has sent hundreds of resumes out to various churches. he is a likable guy. but he cant hold his anger, he and his wife drink at least twice a week, and upon speaking with him wouldnt know the holy spirit if he kicked him i the head.
he has auditioned for many churches. now if there i one baby christian in that building who may need to hear that addiction isnt bennificial this man cannot preach on that or if he does he is a hypocrite and a lyer, god could hardly bless that work.

i will say this again 98% of ministers in churches across america are imature belivers. ill even say what the Lord said to me, his true church doesnt need advertisements. the love of christ in the assembly will do all the advertising needed. the lord will not bring people to him to have them not be propely decipled. the hard truth is that american christianity is all about prostituting the lord for selfish gain.
ask God he will tell you.

i understand the not muzzeling an ox verse and the others quoted by cindy. i also believe that a true properly decipled, mature man of god who has been called of God {not his own decision as a career} should have his basic needs met. such as housing food transportation ect. the reason i make the statement that i do is because by refusing the salery this ill weed out the heirling, and what will be left are men of faith whom reley soley upon the lord for thier sustanance. when a minister sees the offering going down this is a threat to heis and his familys well being, thus tempting them to come up with some program, advertisement or what ever to get the tithe back up all in the name of jesus. paul him self said that he was glad that he wasnt a burden, if i rember correctly, i believe that he even worked as a tent maker at one point in the ministry as to not be a burden. setting the example that if the funds arent there than dont be a burden.

i live with in 30 miles of copeland, robinson, daystar, murdock,.... well the list could go on for ever, and it breaks my heart to know that with all that money around that not one of them would help a ministry who feeds the homeless keep thier electricity on. instead out whent the lights, i encouraged them that they are setting the true example that the church isnt the building but the people. believe it or not they are growing with no lights no airconditioning, no advertisments just the investment in to people. there is no self glory when the lord is working and in reality most ministers want the glory.

tell me of one church that spends more each week on the widows and orphans than they do saleries, morgatges, air conditioning, cell phones for staff, new pews or carpet, maybe a big whopping electric bill to power the big screen so the minister can be seen of all, inward focused programs, advertising and the like, i openly challenge anyone to find one who really puts the people first. any one up to that challenge? i know of only one. in the entire dallas/ ft worth metroplex.

quite possibaly the great harlot mentioned is the american church.

[anna]

I would not want to live near the atmosphere of copeland.
I agree with you deadman, I could tell of my many experiences.
I'll keep this short because I have to go to work soon.
I wish you could experience the healing from being alone in nature that I have had. When alone and silent you can be cleansed by God from the effects of the world and renewed in spirit.
God's vision is on his children. We can get through this world and walk with God and have the victory. psalms 33:18 Behold the eye of the Lord is upon them that fears him, upon them that hope in his mercy.

[jtheb]

I used to know an evangelist in GB. I remember one day he told a friend. "You ought to go to US. If I spend a few months there I make enough so I don't have to work for the rest of the year"

[Marianne]

i will say this again 98% of ministers in churches across america are imature belivers. ill even say what the Lord said to me, his true church doesnt need advertisements. the love of christ in the assembly will do all the advertising needed. the lord will not bring people to him to have them not be propely decipled. the hard truth is that american christianity is all about prostituting the lord for selfish gain.
ask God he will tell you.

98% ? That's quite a generalization your making deadman. I am curious as to where you have received these statistics from?

...and why do you refer to American Christianity only?

[_Michael_]

tell me of one church that spends more each week on the widows and orphans than they do saleries, morgatges, air conditioning, cell phones for staff, new pews or carpet, maybe a big whopping electric bill to power the big screen so the minister can be seen of all, inward focused programs, advertising and the like, i openly challenge anyone to find one who really puts the people first. any one up to that challenge? i know of only one. in the entire dallas/ ft worth metroplex.

Deadman, there is a Pentecostal church in Garland that does, can't remember the name. I have to ask why are you so down on churches in general? Most are good some are bad, but not all.

[deadman]

most churches pet flesh. and really arent sreious about true decipling. if that wasnt the case why is divorce just as high among believers as the world? just as an example, why would any "sect" of minstream christianity concider homosexual ministers as being quaified, and why would not all the other christians raise cain about that and denounce them as a cult.

i would encourage each of you to do a unbiased survey. ask 100 people {preferably not from your church.} thier opinion of ministers. there is a reason for that reputation.

i would love to go visit the church in garland, and look at thier books.


if you would for a moment forgive me maybe in my zeal for the real church to choke out all the fake ones i made it un clear exactly where my heart is.

i believe that it is absoulty imparitive that once a person comes to christ, that they be proplerly decipled and i also know this take a life time. my intention is not to stir up emotionin the soulish realm but rather prompt each and every one who reads this to examine the example that they are setting. the term christian means christ like.
in him there was no sin. and sin is now and has been rampet in the church. w have been called to a life of holyness, now please dont hear that under law but rather the grace that the lord gives us to dye to our sin nature and let him reighn in us. so that we are so full that we infect all thoes around us with the love of christ.

christ in his day also had to adress thoes whom were in authority of the church, and sadly to say we are once again remaining there as in the time of paul. and i believe that the lord is aclling uis to a higher standard.
so if we can please release the emotion in the soul concerning my comments and get with the lord and ask him, father is this guy deadman aka ross, correct in the numbers of heirling ministers?

i dont have a negative view of churches im just saying what he said.

[Lee]

For a person who has said nothing but criticisms of American churches it seems contradictory to say you have not got a negative view of churches. You sure present a negative view of churches.

You also state;


my intention is not to stir up emotionin the soulish realm but rather prompt each and every one who reads this to examine the example that they are setting. the term christian means christ like.

You also seem to have a negative opinion of the people on this site.

I have also not seen one single post in this discussion that is "emotional" as you claim.

I also want to know what you mean by "soulish realm"


i would encourage each of you to do a unbiased survey. ask 100 people {preferably not from your church.} thier opinion of ministers. there is a reason for that reputation.

Yes, two reasons 1. It is deserved in many cases and 2. Its satan attacking the church and keeping unbelievers in unbelief.

Not everything you say about American churches is true in all American churches.

[deadman]

i agree its not all american churches. but 98% of them.
maybe this will help you to understand where i come from. when jesus was grooming his deciples for the foundation of his church, im not to shure but if i rember correctly he was not one to hold back in his correction of thier soulish thinking and reactions to spiritual matters.

as a matter of fact he called it as it was. he wasnt concerned with hurting thier feelings, as a matter of fact he asked them to leave All they had to follow him. now lets take the same thing and apply it to the message tought here in the states.

im not shur but i believe that he emptied out his fathers house the temple when thoes in leadership were robbing his children. now the bible also states that we have recieved freely so give it freely, i seriously doubt that he met charge 49.99 for the 5 disk set.

if i trully love the church, i to will be christ like and call it as it is.
we have existed in an era for some time now where really what most people expect from a relationship with god id what he can do from them or they can do for him. when in reality all he wants is relationship.

whjen i speak of the soulish realm i mean making shure that ater you read my post that one would go to the father and ask for understanding and decermnent.

you are correct no one has gone on a cussing spree, and the like in thier responces. but imm also seeing alot of defence. now do not get me wrong, there are a few decent local assemblies out there.
but i would ask again, is the majority of the tithe for morgatages, saleries, programs, the big jumbo tron, air conditioning. while i would have no doubt that with in 1 mile of each of them there are widows and orphaned children maybe by divorce that go un noticed.
its easy to see the heart of a congreation by where the money goes.

here where i live, there are churches every where, but where is the friut.
divorce is rampent, selfish ness abounds, how many time have each of us drove past a guy panhandleing and didnt stop cast the devilouut of him and get him heald and decipled him. we are all guilty. who knows maybe god would want us to just pass on by? im not claiming to know every thing.
but i would ask again, ask God if i am wrong. but first you must be ready to hear.
fourms like this are a great thing. at the same time we are to love thoes in authority over us. that being the ministers that are teaching a false gosple, love covers a multitudle of sin.
if we truly love the body of christ we also must be willing to speak the truth no matter how unpopular, thus giving up our lives, not careing how we may be recieved, laying it down in love that will cover the sin until the lord gets ahold of them. that doesnt mean tolerance, the lord has to direct each and every action in thoes situations. if not we are just as bad as they.

any time tithe or giving is linked to recieveing from god in message there is greed being tought. yes he has made promises, our giving is an act of love and that of being a slave. the promises were for encouragement when in the midst of trials. not to be linked with giving in the same topic. now you will have to hear that by the spirit. not natural reason nor the soul realm.

since the kingdom is within us at this time, it is a spiritual reality, we cannot attempt to interpet spiritual matters in the soul realm nor maybe a more familuare term, the flesh.

[_Michael_]

father is this guy deadman aka ross, correct in the numbers of heirling ministers?

I would say you have no real statistical evidence to show the answer to that question you asked. It is only your opinion. That is how I see it.

[Lee]

Originally Posted by deadman

i agree its not all american churches. but 98% of them.

Where is the link to back this number up? Strictly your opinion, not a reliable number by any means.
maybe this will help you to understand where i come from. when jesus was grooming his deciples for the foundation of his church, im not to shure but if i rember correctly he was not one to hold back in his correction of thier soulish thinking and reactions to spiritual matters.

Care to explain what soulish thinking is?
as a matter of fact he called it as it was. he wasnt concerned with hurting thier feelings, as a matter of fact he asked them to leave All they had to follow him. now lets take the same thing and apply it to the message tought here in the states.

im not shur but i believe that he emptied out his fathers house the temple when thoes in leadership were robbing his children. now the bible also states that we have recieved freely so give it freely, i seriously doubt that he met charge 49.99 for the 5 disk set.

10.00 for a disc isn't a bad price when you compare it to movies and music CD's. Not to mention Christian CD's are not bought in the same bulk as mainstream CD'd and DVD's therefore are more expensive to make. They do have overhead to pay, not to mention the fact, no one has to buy them if they don't want to.

if i trully love the church, i to will be christ like and call it as it is.
we have existed in an era for some time now where really what most people expect from a relationship with god id what he can do from them or they can do for him. when in reality all he wants is relationship.

That is true, but you are painting all christians with the same brush and that my friend is bearing false witness. Not everyone who calls themselves Christian behaves like that.

whjen i speak of the soulish realm i mean making shure that ater you read my post that one would go to the father and ask for understanding and decermnent.

Need to clarify this.
you are correct no one has gone on a cussing spree, and the like in thier responces. but imm also seeing alot of defence. now do not get me wrong, there are a few decent local assemblies out there.

No one mentioned cussing at all. You said people were getting emotional, not the same by any means. Also just because someone disagrees or asks for clarification of something you stated, doesn't make them wrong. I get the feeling from your responses that you don't really care what anyone else thinks. Your view seems to be that your right we are wrong and that's it. Well to bad. Not everyone is going to agree with you, especially since you come here, not known to us and appear to be making accusations against us, that simply aren't true.

but i would ask again, is the majority of the tithe for morgatages, saleries, programs, the big jumbo tron, air conditioning. while i would have no doubt that with in 1 mile of each of them there are widows and orphaned children maybe by divorce that go un noticed.
its easy to see the heart of a congreation by where the money goes.

True, but again not everyone. Many churches do quite a bit for the homeless and poor but never speak of it. See blowing your own horn and making sure everybody knows the good you've done is contrary to God.

here where i live, there are churches every where, but where is the friut.
divorce is rampent, selfish ness abounds, how many time have each of us drove past a guy panhandleing and didnt stop cast the devilouut of him and get him heald and decipled him. we are all guilty. who knows maybe god would want us to just pass on by? im not claiming to know every thing.
but i would ask again, ask God if i am wrong. but first you must be ready to hear.
fourms like this are a great thing. at the same time we are to love thoes in authority over us. that being the ministers that are teaching a false gosple, love covers a multitudle of sin.
if we truly love the body of christ we also must be willing to speak the truth no matter how unpopular, thus giving up our lives, not careing how we may be recieved, laying it down in love that will cover the sin until the lord gets ahold of them. that doesnt mean tolerance, the lord has to direct each and every action in thoes situations. if not we are just as bad as they.

And people around here do speak up the truth, such as me right now but you don't care to see that, you just come in with more accusations disguised as telling us the truth. No one around here will tell you that the church as a whole is doing everything right but one thing to keep in mind, we are in the end times when the bible tells us that people will not abide by sound doctrine. Does that mean we are to ignore these things you bring up---no of course not. But we can't go around making broad across the board accusations against everyone who claims to be christian. You say 98%. How do you know that is accurate--you don't. It is simply your opinion. And because you present that as fact you are bearing false witness.

any time tithe or giving is linked to recieveing from god in message there is greed being tought. yes he has made promises, our giving is an act of love and that of being a slave. the promises were for encouragement when in the midst of trials. not to be linked with giving in the same topic. now you will have to hear that by the spirit. not natural reason nor the soul realm.

since the kingdom is within us at this time, it is a spiritual reality, we cannot attempt to interpet spiritual matters in the soul realm nor maybe a more familuare term, the flesh.

Were do you get the idea that the "soul realm" is the flesh?

[deadman]

i am not yet hearing you say that you went to the lord and he said the numbers i mention are wrong. tis is what he said to me. i need to keep thi short dur to time. ill adress each answer later today.

[Lee]

Originally Posted by deadman

i am not yet hearing you say that you went to the lord and he said the numbers i mention are wrong. tis is what he said to me. i need to keep thi short dur to time. ill adress each answer later today.

Don't bother. God told you it was 98%? Right. God gave you knowledge of a specific number so now your some kind of prophet getting a special word from God.

[jtheb]

I think it must be great to be perfect so you can spend your time criticising.

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by jtheb

I think it must be great to be perfect so you can spend your time criticising.

That was totally uncalled for jtheb and I will not put up with posters attacking each other here.

[jtheb]

Sorry but I do not see my comment is any different to many others on the forum.

[Cindy]

The topic if I recall correctly is deadman's opinion that most of today's church's are not doing what they need to be doing and that is discipling believers. If that is in fact what he's saying then I'd have to agree with him on that.

He has also made some other points such as most pastors being hirelings which I assume (and I may be wrong) he means that they aren't truly saved themselves. While I'm not so sure I would go so far as to say "most" aren't even saved themselves, I do agree that they are a lot of them out there that aren't. There are a lot out there that are only interested in money. It's a job for them and in very many cases the church has become a business. In fact I think I posted a very good article to that effect just recently in Christian Chat.

It seems to me that people here are getting caught up in the adjectives he's using such as when he says "most of them" etc. instead of "some of them".

Everyone here already knows my views on this. I'm forever harping on the dismal lack of discipling in today's churches and the fact that today's Christians often don't have a clue what it means to be a Christian. They are in fact Christian in name only and not really saved at all. There is so much false teaching out there today that between that and the lack of good discipleship it's no wonder the body of Christ has shrunk so much. In fact I suspect that it is the lack of good discipleship that brought on the false teachers in the first place and made people gullible so they couldn't tell the difference between the truth and a lie. Only when someone is mature in Christ can they use the discernment that the Lord gives them to tell the difference, so with very few being discipled, we have very few who are mature.

Again though, you all already know all my views on this so I promise I wont harp on it any longer in this thread. I just wanted to point out that although I do not necessarily agree that "most" pastors or "churches" are bad, I do think a large number are. I also think we will see that number continue to grow because we ARE in the last days and this is exactly what Jesus said would happen. If anyone doubts that all they need to do is take a quick look at this thread and know that it's by no means even half way complete!

Index of false Teachers/Prophets/Ministries that are covered here

There is no such thing as a perfect church or a perfect Christian, there isn't now and there wasn't back in the first century either as we can easily see in the Bible when we read how they were also fighting heresy etc back then too. However that doesn't mean that we shouldn't do our best to be perfect and holy as our Father is, at least to me it doesn't.

I just posted this thread about this today that you all might also find interesting:

The false gospel of too many evangelical churches

[anna]

Originally Posted by jtheb

Sorry but I do not see my comment is any different to many others on the forum.

[deadman]

wow, that is what i was talking about by soulish or emotional. however i will follow cindys request and remain non specific nor adress any one here personaly.

actually if i rember correctly, and most of you are much more knowledgeable in the scriptures, but i think there is a passage in revelations where several churches were mentioned. i believe that he had a rebuke for all save one. there for im not so shure why my statements would be recieved in such a way.

maybe this will help with where im comming from.
i am no bible school grad, however i believe my understanding is on the right track.

its my understanding that the blue print if you will, for the establishment of the local assembly is found throughout the new testament. this would be much easier to communicate in person as im also not a writer but here we go.


{please keep in mind this is a very very condensed version}

the big A apostles {original 11 chosen by christ plus 1 added by the 11 guided by the holy spirit who christ said was comming to take his place here on earth}. went to the local temple/streets and preached the gosple.
out of that leaders Pastors, teachers, prophets, evangelist, elders and deacons were selected by prayer and fasting and they were chosen from men already established in that community. most, not all pastors here are not the missonary or little a apostle, that was sent out by another fellowship lets say from denver to la to preach the gospel, and establish a local assembly. and then the process repets its self.

the main thing i would like to point out is that the leadership was chosen from among thoes already in fellowship. the only recorded seperation from this as i know it was paul sending timmothy to a church or already established assembly. however since paul was the original founding missonary this also gave him authority over that assembly. thus he was alowed to send folks to set things in order. keeping in mind often times the leadership was chosen from new converts. there was a reason that the leadership was chosen from local people, is was a testamony as to the life changeing power of the lord in one life. now we have them come and audition. maybe check a few reffrences that they provide and vote. this blue print i cat find, maybe some one here could show me that example in the bible.

now i said all that to say this, if this is the biblical blueprint for the establishment for a local assembly. one would think that that should be followed today. this speaks to the percent that i have stated.

how many of us know of a church born of a church split, division? i would say we all do. i dont find any example of a biblical local assembly borne out of divison and strife. this also should tell us something.

how many of our churches practice real church discipline. i mean calling one out publicaly for thier un repentant sin? this increases the percentage again for the 98% that i was shown. instead we have become a body of tollerance, but if a little leven spreads to the whole loaf then this also speaks to the percentage i speak of.

how much fear of the lord is present in your local assembly? i believe that paul also adressed this some where when great fear of the lord was there and they served with fear and trembling, and numbers were added to them daily. is our local church growing every day by "numbers"? just another thing to concider.

the apostle paul if i rember said that when some followed apollos some followed him that this shouldnt be so. however on any given sunday we go off to church, often time driving well beyond our emediate spear of influance to a church some miles away, passing who knnows how many of a diffrent sects. the fact that there are so many diffrent sects of "christianity" aslo speaks to the number i have mentioned.

and whom leads this and sets the example, our pastors elders, deacons.

ill stop right there for now, and i appreachiate everyones openess.

[_Michael_]

Guys and Gals,

I found myself getting anxious about deadmans post, but in the long run his opinion doesn't matter or shouldn't matter to anyone. I believe there are a lot of good churches and pastors out there. My opinion.

Deadman, where are you from? Do you have a spell checker on your computer?

God Bless,

Mike

[Cindy]

deadman thank you for attempting to follow the rules, I appreciate that!

As far as the letters to the 7 churches go, there were two of them that He had nothing but praise for:

Revelation 2:8-11 “To the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again. I know your afflictions and your poverty—yet you are rich! I know the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.


Revelation 3:7-13 “To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you. Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

As far as the early Christians not having churches that were formed from division and strife, that's not necessarily true as a large part of the NT is information about how false teachers were disrupting the churches. I wouldn't be at all surprised if churches were split because of it. Anyone who has left a church that has gone down the road to apostasy is doing the right thing and it's only logical that others who are believers will follow and a new building is used to house them. Again you're mixing up your terms. The church is the body of true believers. If a body of true believers is infiltrated by impostors and they cannot root them out, then they have no other recourse but to leave that building and find another building where the true church can meet together.

Now when you talk about how leaders were chosen, I think I finally understand where you're coming from and what your error is. You're saying if I understand you correctly that you believe pastors/leaders should be chosen from the fellowship that's already established there at the church, is that correct? The reason I say you're in error is simply because you're limiting what the church is. You're seeing it as a little church on the corner in your neighborhood instead of the body of Christ which consists of all believers. There's a good reason the apostles chose people from the local area that they had trained. They didn't have mass communication and mass transport that we do. It would be unrealistic for them to have appointed someone from one city to be over a church in another country. Now days we don't have that limitation. There is nothing wrong with choosing someone who is a true believer that comes from someplace outside the local community if there is no one in that local community that can or will fill the position.

[deadman]

im sorry, maybe that isnt the blue print for the body of christ. so i wonder why that is in there, mabe just for historical context.

[Cindy]

maybe what isn't? Everything I've said comes straight from the Bible. They also didn't drive cars then or have airplanes or computers. Perhaps you believe that all those things are also evil? Or that if not evil that they shouldn't be used by believers because they're not in the Bible? As I said, the only reason they chose from the local people was because they had no other choice. There is no scripture forbidding it and God is most certainly smart enough to know that one day it would only take a few hours to go around the globe so I'm quite sure that if He did not want us doing it, He would have made it quite plain, just as He made the requirements for the various offices quite plain and clear.