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End Times Chat A place to discuss anything that relates to the end times. Soft news and commentaries should be posted in here. We are a pre trib board. Please take positions other than pre trib to the apologetics forum. Matt 24:33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near, at the very doors.

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Old June 22nd, 2010, 03:24 PM
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thumbs up Petra and Bozrah

We recently had a couple of different threads that led to the start of a conversation about Petra and Bozrah and how God will protect the people in those two places during the last three years of the tribulation, which is referred to as the "great tribulation". I've always been fascinated by that topic so I thought I'd post the relevant information here again so we could discuss it further.

Why Will Jordan Escape The Anti-Christ?


Q. I have learned so much from your teaching since finding your site about a year ago. I have a question about Jordan being one of the only places that elude the Anti-Christ’s control during the Great Tribulation. Why do you think that Jordan is exempt from Anti-Christ’s control (maybe other scriptures in addition to Dan. 11:41), and are there other places that also will be exempt? It seems to me at the present time Jordan is going against Israel in wanting Israel to give back land to the Palestinians.

A. Daniel 11:41 says that Edom, Moab and the leaders of Ammon will be delivered from His (anti-Christ’s) hand. Edom and Moab occupied lands that belong to Jordan today, and the leaders of Ammon are the Hashemite family, with King Abdullah II as its head. This family has ruled Jordan, whose capital is Ahman (after Ammon), since its inception.

There are several references that when combined lead scholars to conclude that at the beginning of the Great Tribulation, believing Jews will flee to Petra in southern Jordan, where they’ll be supernaturally protected by the Lord. In Matt. 24:16 the Lord warned those in Judea (Israel) to flee to the mountains when they see the Abomination of Desolation. The closest mountains are to the east in southern Jordan where Petra is located. Rev. 12:14 tells of Satan pursuing them across the desert as they flee to a place prepared for them. This desert lies between Israel and the mountains of southern Jordan around the northern and eastern shores of the Dead Sea. And in Isaiah 63: 1-6 there’s a description of the Lord coming from Bozrah in Edom after single handedly defeating His enemies there. Bozrah is the region of Edom where Petra is located. This indicates that when the time comes the Lord will declare Jordan off limits to the anti-Christ and give His people refuge there.

Those who believe Islam will be the end times religion take note of the fact that King Abdullah II is the prophet Mohammed’s closest living relative. This gives him incredible influence in the world of Islam and makes him the custodian of Islam’s holiest sites. If the anti-Christ is also Islamic it seems logical that he would spare Jordan’s leaders as members of Mohammed’s family.

No other country is mentioned in the Bible as being excluded from the anti-Christ’s control.


posted with permission
http://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bibl...e-anti-christ/


Tribulation Children

Q. I am concerned about the little children who are conceived after the Rapture. I know Jesus will return before they reach an age of accountability, so their salvation is assured. But I worry about what their lives will be like during the 70th week, and especially during the Great Tribulation.

Is there anything in scripture to suggest that those innocent little ones will receive some form of divine protection/consolation to minimize their suffering during that period? Will the merciful and loving God “see to their well-being” in some way; even if it is by removing them quickly to His presence?

A. Speaking of the time when the Great Tribulation begins, Jesus said it would be dreadful for pregnant women and nursing mothers (Matt. 24:19). This tells me no special provision will be made for Tribulation children. Through out the Age of Man children have always been the most vulnerable of all in times of judgment. And even in peaceful times multiple thousands die every day of preventable causes. So-called Guardian Angels seem to be more tasked with reporting abusers to God than protecting children from abuse. The one consolation is that little ones always go straight into the arms of the Lord upon dying.


posted with permission
http://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bibl...on-children-2/

related posts

Why Will Jordan Escape The Anti-Christ?

Why The Rebirth of Israel Is a Sign of the End

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Old June 22nd, 2010, 03:25 PM
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Default Re: Petra and Bozrah

Matthew 24:12-25 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house.Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time.

These verses are referring to "the great tribulation" which is the last 3 and a half years of the trib and not the rapture. It's instructions for the Jew's who are present when the AC defiles the Temple because it's at that point that they had better run for their lives to Petra or Bozrah for God's protection. Those are the only two places on this earth where believers (and children) will be safe because God will protect everyone there supernaturally.

When the AC defiles the Temple with the abomination that is what will turn the Jew's to their real Messiah, Jesus, and He tells them in this verse to run for their lives for their lives will be in grave danger just as the lives of the Christians are at this time.

He says it will be especially hard for those who are pregnant and nursing for obvious reasons--it's difficult to run for your life that way, and if it's the sabbath they're in big trouble for they will have to once and for all decide to follow Jesus and not the law.

It will be a big test for them because remember they will have gone back to following the law during the first 3 and half years of the trib and doing their sacrifices and all.

(remember the Left Behind books? It talks about this in those books too) (Yes, I know the LB books aren't theology books lol, but I know many have read those as have I and this portion is correct about what happens at this point in time)
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Old June 22nd, 2010, 03:28 PM
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Default Re: Petra and Bozrah

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Originally Posted by jtheb View Post
Excuse my ignorance Why Petra?
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Originally Posted by Cindy View Post
Petra is one of the two places where God will protect His people during the tribulation. My understanding is that they're near each other and also near Jerusalem and Armageddon. They will still be able to die from disease or an accident or things like that, but the antichrist and his forces won't be able to lay a hand on anyone in those two places. Here are the main passages that this is discussed in God's Word:

Revelation 12:14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.

Daniel 11:41 He will also invade the Beautiful Land. Many countries will fall, but Edom, Moab and the leaders of Ammon will be delivered from his hand.

Isaiah 63:1 Who is this coming from Edom, from Bozrah, with his garments stained crimson? Who is this, robed in splendor, striding forward in the greatness of his strength? “It is I, speaking in righteousness, mighty to save.”

Isaiah 26:20-21 Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by. See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling to punish the people of the earth for their sins. The earth will disclose the blood shed upon her; she will conceal her slain no longer.

Zechariah 14:2-3 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights in the day of battle.


It's also in Joel 2 but it's pretty much the whole chapter so I don't want to post all of that.
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Originally Posted by Pathwalker View Post
I am one of those people Cindy is talking about that has read the entire Series of Left Behind. To me, Jerry Jenkens and Tim LaHaye are pretty accurate to what the Bible says about Children during the Trib. Cindy, I always thought that Petra was the only place that God would protect His people, during the Tribulation. It didn't dawn on me to even think about Bozrah til you showed us Isaiah 63:1. ( Interesting )
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Old June 22nd, 2010, 03:29 PM
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Default Re: Petra and Bozrah

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Originally Posted by Cindy View Post
I think they're fairly close together Mark. Here's some info on them both:

PETRA [PET ruh] (rock) — the capital of Nabatea, situated about 275 kilometers (170 miles) southwest of modern Amman and about 80 kilometers (50 miles) south of the Dead Sea. Petra is not mentioned by name in the Bible, but many scholars believe it was the same place as Sela (Judg. 1:36; 2 Kin. 14:7).
Petra is one of the most spectacular archaeological ruins in the Near East and is a popular attraction on Holy Land tours. Most of the buildings and tombs of Petra are cut into the rose-red rock cliffs of the area.
Petra’s ruins consist of about 750 monuments, most of them dating from the second half of the first century b.c. to the second century after Christ. In a.d. 131 the Roman emperor Hadrian (ruled a.d. 117–38) visited the city and ordered construction to begin on the so-called treasury, which has been called “Petra’s gem”—a temple to Isis.
Many ruins of Roman construction may be seen at Petra: a triumphal arch, an amphitheater, remains of baths, temples, tombs, and sections of a road. Above the city is the great high place, containing sacrificial altars hewn from the solid rock. Such open-air sanctuaries have thrown light on the High Places mentioned in the Old Testament.
Petra is reached from the west by ascending the Wadi Musa and passing through a narrow, high-walled gorge, known as the Siq. Over a mile in length, this gorge provided Petra with excellent defense. The city is situated in a basin that is about 900 meters (3,000 feet) wide and about 1,600 meters (one mile) long. The city is surrounded by massive sandstone cliffs of a dark red color.

BOZRAH [BAHZ ruh]the name of two cities in the Old Testament:
1. The royal city of Edom (see Map 4, B–5), on which several of the prophets pronounced divine judgment (Jer. 49:13, 22). The Lord is represented as coming from Bozrah, wearing blood-sprinkled garments, having trodden the winepress of His wrath upon the Gentile nations (Is. 63:1–6).
2. A city in the tableland of Moab, which also received prophecy of coming divine judgment (Jer. 48:24).

Nelson's illustrated Bible dictionary

Bozrah — enclosure; fortress. (1.) The city of Jobab, one of the early Edomite kings (Gen. 36:33). This place is mentioned by the prophets in later times (Isa. 34:6; Jer. 49:13; Amos 1:12; Micah 2:12). Its modern representative is el-Busseireh. It lies in the mountain district of Petra, 20 miles to the south-east of the Dead Sea.
Easton's Bible dictionary.

I did a quick search to see if I could find a map and came across these pictures you might like to see. I did NOT read what is written here so I have no idea if it's correct or not, I'm only posting the link for the photos:

http://www.yeshuatyisrael.com/bozrah.htm

here's some more:
http://www.bibleplaces.com/edom.htm

but I can't find a map that shows the distance between them...
Quote:
Originally Posted by revtami View Post
I guess I have to stand corrected too because I've always believed the same way as Cheryl. I've always thought it was referring to the rapture for all the same reasons Cheryl has pointed out. Guess I'm going to have to get into my Bible and re-read and re-study or just plain study this topic.
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I always thought so too Tami; just like Cheryl did and for the same reasons. I'll try to remember to post more of what the Bible says about it tomorrow for us ok?
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Old June 22nd, 2010, 03:32 PM
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Default Re: Petra and Bozrah

Ok, LOL, that brings us up to date. The reason I did it this way instead of bumping up the threads was because this conversation was actually on two different threads so it would have been confusing that way. I never did get back with anymore info about this, but would love to discuss it more if any one else is interested. Or discuss why that passage is talking about the trib and not the rapture if you'd like...both are very interesting to me! That particular passage is very similar to another passage that is talking about the rapture, so that might cause confusion too. But when read in context as I posted it, it shows it to be most certainly talking about the last 3 and a half years of the tribulation.
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Old June 22nd, 2010, 03:41 PM
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Default Re: Petra and Bozrah

If Petra is not in the Bible and Bozrah and Edom is? Although there is a place called Petra, Israel. How can the Scholars, say , that this is where the people will be safe or Protected?
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Old June 22nd, 2010, 09:12 PM
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Default Re: Petra and Bozrah

Great question Mark and one I had myself. I remember reading the answer too lol, but now I can't remember what it was! Well, guess that means I didn't study hard enough huh? That's ok though because it's fascinating to me anyway so I'll go do some more digging in my bible tomorrow. Maybe someone else knows the answer though and can give us some hints at least before then.
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Old June 22nd, 2010, 10:25 PM
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Default Re: Petra and Bozrah

very interesting read..
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Old June 23rd, 2010, 12:12 PM
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Default Re: Petra and Bozrah

I had a feeling I had better re-read what had already been posted before I started searching again and I'm glad I did because Petra is explained here:

Quote:
In Matt. 24:16 the Lord warned those in Judea (Israel) to flee to the mountains when they see the Abomination of Desolation. The closest mountains are to the east in southern Jordan where Petra is located. Rev. 12:14 tells of Satan pursuing them across the desert as they flee to a place prepared for them. This desert lies between Israel and the mountains of southern Jordan around the northern and eastern shores of the Dead Sea. And in Isaiah 63: 1-6 there’s a description of the Lord coming from Bozrah in Edom after single handedly defeating His enemies there. Bozrah is the region of Edom where Petra is located. This indicates that when the time comes the Lord will declare Jordan off limits to the anti-Christ and give His people refuge there.
So I would say then that it's this "region" that God will protect, and that the two main "cities" (they're only ruins now) there are Petra and Bozrah, and those are the most likely places for humans to seek shelter in that region.
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Old June 23rd, 2010, 06:05 PM
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Default Re: Petra and Bozrah

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cindy View Post
I had a feeling I had better re-read what had already been posted before I started searching again and I'm glad I did because Petra is explained here:

So I would say then that it's this "region" that God will protect, and that the two main "cities" (they're only ruins now) there are Petra and Bozrah, and those are the most likely places for humans to seek shelter in that region.

Although Petra maybe Ruins, People flock from all over to visit this city. So this has to be one of the area's that the Scholars are talking about. This is a very intersting study. Do you think that many whom have read the " Left behind series ", have felt that when they visted Israel, that this would be one of the places to go?
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Old June 24th, 2010, 11:04 AM
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Default Re: Petra and Bozrah

I don't know Mark.. I'd love to see it, but then again there's so much in Israel that I'd like to see as well that it would take quite some time to see it all. It would probably depend on how long their visit was for.

A lot of the scholars think that the first part of this verse

Revelation 12:14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.

Is actually the one and only possible reference to the USA in the Bible. They think it could mean that someone or some group (probably underground Christians just like in Left Behind) sends a plane to take groups of people to Petra and Bozrah. I can't see the official government doing it since at that point the official government of the AC will be out to kill the Jews not rescue them.

While it is possible that the 2 wings of an Eagle is a reference to US aircraft, it's also possible it's simply a reference to aircraft in general. Another very big possibility is that it's simply again referring to God supernaturally helping them escape so it's really hard to tell.
That figure of speech is used by God several times in the old testament to speak about His divine help:

Exodus 19:4 ‘You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself.

Deuteronomy 32:9-11 For the Lord’s portion is his people, Jacob his allotted inheritance. In a desert land he found him, in a barren and howling waste. He shielded him and cared for him; he guarded him as the apple of his eye, like an eagle that stirs up its nest and hovers over its young, that spreads its wings to catch them and carries them on its pinions.
It will be interesting to see from Heaven just how the Lord carries this out!
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