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Apologetics Witnessing and Defending the Faith. This is also the place to discuss mid and post trib positions, and conspiracy theories. NOTE: Debate is allowed in this Forum!. We will not tolerate the mocking of our board, our members, our faith, and most importantly, our Lord. Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said to them: "Take heed that no one deceives you. Col 4:5–6 Be wise in the way you act toward outsiders; make the most of every opportunity. Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.

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Old March 12th, 2006, 06:01 PM
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Default When was the first Christian Church building built?

The first church buildings ever erected on this planet were planned and begun in 323.

What has been discovered? Let's begin with Christian architecture - that is, church buildings. The Roman school declared that church buildings have been with us from the second century on. It further taught that the church buildings erected during the Constantinian era were built on the sites of previous church structures. This dogma was universally accepted as fact. But recently, Christian archeology has gone back to reinvestigate those sites. The findings: Without exception, there was no church building or any other kind of Christian meeting place to be buried beneath any Constantinian-era church buildings. Archaeologists found either virgin land or pagan temples or marketplaces or maybe even an occasional Pizza Hut, but no evidence anywhere of any kind of building used for Christian gatherings.

The implications were staggering - and still are! They are a call to the whole church, Catholic and Protestant, to rethink the nature of what we call "church." In one way, the most remarkable discovery was that of a single Christian meeting place - the only one ever found from the pre-Constantine era! Even it was not a church building, but a home that had been converted into a meeting place for Christians. The site is a town in Syria with the odd name of Duro-Europa. Exhaustive studies have been made of this building. The upshot is this: It was just a home used in the mid-200s as a place for Christians to gather. One of its peculiarities: A wall had been torn out between two bedrooms to make one large room that would hold about seventy-five people sitting on the floor. The point? Until Constantine, there was no such thing as a church building or "Christian" architecture. A church building had never been dreamed of in a dream. That which we know as the Christian faith was a living room movement! The Christian faith was the first and only religion ever to exist that did not use special temples of worship; it is the only "living room" religion in human history.

http://www.lostkeysrevelation.com/open/constantine.htm

For the last year, I have been pepperred by jeers and jokes by some Catholic apologetics, regarding the meaning of the word "church'. They demand Jesus Christ founded the Catholic Church, when the first "church" wasn't built until 323AD.

Thus, when church is mentioned in Scripture, IT IS THE BODY OF BELIEVERS, not a denomination or building.
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Old March 14th, 2006, 06:48 AM
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Thus, when church is mentioned in Scripture, IT IS THE BODY OF BELIEVERS, not a denomination or building.
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Old March 14th, 2006, 05:29 PM
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Thus, when church is mentioned in Scripture, IT IS THE BODY OF BELIEVERS, not a denomination or building.
Amen....
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Old March 14th, 2006, 05:52 PM
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Thus, when church is mentioned in Scripture, IT IS THE BODY OF BELIEVERS, not a denomination or building.
I don't know of anyone believing that the mention of 'church' had to be a 'building'. It always seemed so ridiculous when a poster wrote,'a church isn't a building'. Now if we are talking of the building where services are held, it is a 'church'(building).

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Old March 14th, 2006, 06:04 PM
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Default Re: When was the first Christian Church building built?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug
Thus, when church is mentioned in Scripture, IT IS THE BODY OF BELIEVERS, not a denomination or building.
Interesting tradition.

Where does it say in the Bible that the Church is ONLY "the body of believers"?

If the church is not supposed to be a denomination, why are there denominations? Denominationalism is a man-made tradition.

If the church is not supposed to be a building, why do Christians build them? Building buildings is a man-made tradition.


Your post also posits a logical problem.

"They demand Jesus Christ founded the Catholic Church, when the first "church" wasn't built until 323AD. "

You assume the Catholic Church is just a building. We don't believe that.

Using your argument, then we can apply that logic to all the other denominations out there (including non-demon churches) and declare them all false.

"They demand Jesus Christ founded the Baptist Church, when the first Baptist "church" wasn't built until 1605AD. "

""They demand Jesus Christ founded the Lutheran Church, when the first lutheran "church" wasn't built until 1517AD. "
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Old March 14th, 2006, 07:09 PM
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Where does it say in the Bible that the Church is ONLY "the body of believers"?
As you know Bob, context helps to define a word. The word church means an assembly. An assembly of who? Of the chosen. Acts chapter 7 specifically says the first church was at Mt Siani...there was no building.
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Old March 14th, 2006, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Peace
Quote:
Where does it say in the Bible that the Church is ONLY "the body of believers"?
As you know Bob, context helps to define a word. The word church means an assembly. An assembly of who? Of the chosen. Acts chapter 7 specifically says the first church was at Mt Siani...there was no building.
You did not answer my question.

I am not denying that one facet of the Church is the body of believers. Yes, that is one definition. However, I deny that the Church is only the "body of believers"

So I'll ask again: Where does it say in the Bible that the Church is ONLY "the body of believers"?
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Old March 14th, 2006, 07:31 PM
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Bob stop trying to change the topic. If this continues I will give out warnings.
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Old March 14th, 2006, 07:43 PM
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Default Cindy, vee gates? :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cindy
Bob stop trying to change the topic. If this continues I will give out warnings.
Cindy, it's my educated guess that my dear close friend, BobCatholic, is not intentionally striving to change the topic. BobCatholic, coming from his Catholic perspective, desires to ease open the door to an opportunity to bring forth his understanding of what The Church is. I think he might have over-reached his questioning via the big red "only" :)

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ps: As an admin in two other boards, I have the same responsibility to see to it that specific topics don't morph into thingies not originally intended by the thread starters :) -- so I can relate to your duties a little bit! :)
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Old March 14th, 2006, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Cindy
Bob stop trying to change the topic. If this continues I will give out warnings.
Doug said
"Thus, when church is mentioned in Scripture, IT IS THE BODY OF BELIEVERS, not a denomination or building."

And I asked Where does it say in the Bible that the Church is ONLY "the body of believers"?

How am I changing the subject? The subject is about the Church apparently being not a building but only the body of believers.

I'm asking a question based on a statement the original poster made. Are you saying that asking questions is forbidden now? Allrightey....
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Old March 14th, 2006, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobCatholic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peace
Quote:
Where does it say in the Bible that the Church is ONLY "the body of believers"?
As you know Bob, context helps to define a word. The word church means an assembly. An assembly of who? Of the chosen. Acts chapter 7 specifically says the first church was at Mt Siani...there was no building.
You did not answer my question.

I am not denying that one facet of the Church is the body of believers. Yes, that is one definition. However, I deny that the Church is only the "body of believers"

So I'll ask again: Where does it say in the Bible that the Church is ONLY "the body of believers"?
Yes, I did answer your question. You refuse it, which is your choice. If you choose to ignore the meaning of a word and the context and the context in which it is used, that's up to you. A church building is much different than a church (an assembly of chosen ones)
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Old March 14th, 2006, 10:52 PM
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Default Re: When was the first Christian Church building built?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobCatholic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug
Thus, when church is mentioned in Scripture, IT IS THE BODY OF BELIEVERS, not a denomination or building.
Interesting tradition.

Where does it say in the Bible that the Church is ONLY "the body of believers"?

church as written in Scripture is not the Catholic church.

If the church is not supposed to be a denomination, why are there denominations? Denominationalism is a man-made tradition.

Agreed.

If the church is not supposed to be a building, why do Christians build them? Building buildings is a man-made tradition.

Apparently from Constantine.

Your post also posits a logical problem.

Not quite.

"They demand Jesus Christ founded the Catholic Church, when the first "church" wasn't built until 323AD."

You assume the Catholic Church is just a building. We don't believe that.

No, Catholics assume anytime in Scripture when the word church is used, it means the Catholic Church.

Using your argument, then we can apply that logic to all the other denominations out there (including non-demon churches) and declare them all false.

"They demand Jesus Christ founded the Baptist Church, when the first Baptist "church" wasn't built until 1605AD."

""They demand Jesus Christ founded the Lutheran Church, when the first lutheran "church" wasn't built until 1517AD. "

(Actually, the first Lutheran Churches were Catholic.)
The point I was making, is that in every discussion with Catholics, they claim of the word church used in Scriptures, means the Catholic Church, when clearly it doesn't.
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Old March 15th, 2006, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Peace
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobCatholic

So I'll ask again: Where does it say in the Bible that the Church is ONLY "the body of believers"?
Yes, I did answer your question. You refuse it, which is your choice. If you choose to ignore the meaning of a word and the context and the context in which it is used, that's up to you. A church building is much different than a church (an assembly of chosen ones)
If you claim that one aspect of the Church is that it is the body of believers, you're right. I agree with you on that.

If you claim that the Church is ONLY the body of believers, then I request scriptures to back up that belief.

Your choice.
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Old March 15th, 2006, 10:53 AM
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Default Re: When was the first Christian Church building built?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobCatholic
Where does it say in the Bible that the Church is ONLY "the body of believers"?

church as written in Scripture is not the Catholic church.
That doesn't answer the question.

I wanted scripture. You have me a magisterial ruling. Why should I accept that magisterial ruling? That's a violation of sola scriptura.


Quote:
If the church is not supposed to be a building, why do Christians build them? Building buildings is a man-made tradition.

Apparently from Constantine.
Are you claiming the term "Church" does not include the building?
If yes, scripture cites please.


Quote:
No, Catholics assume anytime in Scripture when the word church is used, it means the Catholic Church.
Versus non-Catholics who assume the same about their church. So, who's interpretation of scripture (tradition) is correct? The Non-catholics? Or that of the Apostles?

Quote:
(Actually, the first Lutheran Churches were Catholic.)
The point I was making, is that in every discussion with Catholics, they claim of the word church used in Scriptures, means the Catholic Church, when clearly it doesn't.
Who made this magisterial ruling and why should anyone accept it? That's a violation of sola scriptura.
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Old March 15th, 2006, 11:06 AM
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Bob please don't turn every single thread into a sola scriptura thread. If you want to discuss that start a new thread.
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Old March 15th, 2006, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Cindy
Bob please don't turn every single thread into a sola scriptura thread. If you want to discuss that start a new thread.
If someone claims to be holding to the Bible alone but in reality is holding to an extra-scriptural tradition, or accepting a magisterial authority when they're supposed to hold to scripture alone, are you saying we should not say anything?
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Old March 15th, 2006, 11:17 AM
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Sure you can! Cindy said to start a new thread!
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Old March 15th, 2006, 11:18 AM
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Sure you can! Cindy said to start a new thread!
So we cannot ask for scripture citations for whatever traditions they're preaching in a thread, in that thread they bring it up?

I see....interesting....
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Old March 15th, 2006, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by BobCatholic
Quote:
Originally Posted by washed
Sure you can! Cindy said to start a new thread!
So we cannot ask for scripture citations for whatever traditions they're preaching in a thread, in that thread they bring it up?

I see....interesting....
Yea, Bob, interesting. You ask for clarification with scripture, because it seems they are follwing tradition. As an aside, you say it violates 'sola scripture', and they think it changes the topic.
Any new thread would be discussing the same thing.

Kay
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Old March 15th, 2006, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cindy
Bob please don't turn every single thread into a sola scriptura thread. If you want to discuss that start a new thread.
Hi Cindy,

Every thread on this section of the Forum, especially threads initiated by yourself, relegate every answer from a Catholic to finding Scriptural support. No ifs, ands or buts. BobCatholics questions are legitimate, as are his responses. It only aggravates "Bible only" folks when those folks are forced to defend their comments using Sola Scriptura.

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Old March 15th, 2006, 02:40 PM
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I suggest that you look up the Greek meaning of the word "church" as used in the New Testament
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Old March 15th, 2006, 02:42 PM
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BobCatholic The Church is the local assembly of believers. Could you image any one going to church that just went for the music? Or to play bingo?

The general references to the church can be found Ephesians 1:22; 3:1-10; 5:23-32 and also in 1 Corinthians 12,13 & 14 has references to the church as believers.



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Old March 15th, 2006, 02:49 PM
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BobCatholic The Church is the local assembly of believers.
The Church is not just the local assembly of believers.

That's my point.

If you are making the claim that the Church is *ONLY* the local assembly of believers, I'd love to see the scripture that says that.

Otherwise, my point stands.
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Old March 15th, 2006, 03:04 PM
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Take the time to open the Bible up! READ! READ! Especially 1 Corinthians 14.
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Old March 15th, 2006, 03:18 PM
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Take the time to open the Bible up! READ! READ!
I've read the Bible multiple times, cover to cover. I found no verses that say the Church is ONLY the local assembly of believers. None. Maybe I'm missing something? That's why I'm asking.

Yes, you can find verses that say the Church is a local assembly of believers, but I asked is that all the Bible says the Church is? Is the Church ONLY a local assembly of believers? I'd like to see the scriptures that say that!


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Especially 1 Corinthians 14.
I read that entire chapter. Nothing about the Church being ONLY the local assembly.

Is it not interesting? Adding one word "ONLY" turns a doctrine of God into a doctrine of men....

This is why we must keep doctrine pure....don't add to the scriptures. Just one word is sufficient to turn a doctrine of God into a doctrine of men.
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